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(QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

  • 1.  (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 02-20-2025 02:34 PM

    (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    This is a quality assurance review (QAR) of an existing RP.

    You may provide your comment by either:

    ·         Posting a message in this thread directly

    ·         Providing your comment in the "REVIEWER" columns of the Excel file and posting it in this thread

    This draft is open for review and comment until April 6, 2025



    ------------------------------
    Christian Heller
    Director of Technical Guidance
    AACE International
    cheller@aacei.org
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)



  • 2.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-21-2025 10:01 AM

    One major issue with this is the idea of a functional or hybrid WBS. The assumption there is that there is only way to structure the work, and you have to either choose product based, functional, event based, or some other primary structure. Or, if you have two or more hierarchical structures you need to subordinate them to create a hybrid. 

    This isn't necessary. You can have independent hierarchical structures and tag the tasks to those structures using custom fields in P6 or Project (or probably any other scheduling tool). We do this all the time with the WBS, OBS, and IMP. The key thing about the WBS is that it needs to support a) scope definition and b) integration with the cost system. That isn't true for say the IMP, which doesn't need to fully support either scope definition or the accounting integration.

    So, my primary comment is that I think it makes sense to leave the WBS alone as a scope and cost integration structure, but maybe extend the RP to be about Project Control Structures and show how the main structures (WBS, OBS, RAM, IMP, etc.) interact to provide better management visibility. Is that something the community would be interested in seeing?



    ------------------------------
    Eric Christoph
    Partner
    Leesburg
    eric@transformativems.com
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-23-2025 10:38 AM

    There are many types of WBS that can be used in parallel (product breakdown structure, process breakdown structure, contract breakdown structure, responsibility breakdown structure, etc.). It is usual to use multiple breakdown structures for Spider Project users. One mouse click switches project schedule view from one WBS to another permitting to analyze project schedule, cost and other parameters from different perspectives. It is useful and natural, used by most Spider Project users for more than 30 years. I would suggest to use as many WBS as needed in every project. At least one of project WBSs must be scope oriented, but other groupings of project activities can be also useful for project performance analysis and decision making.

    One of WBS useful features is an opportunity to apply Earned Value Analysis and other ways of performance analysis and reporting not only to the whole project but also to any WBS item of any structure (for each contract, for each responsibility area, for each geographical area, for each process group, etc.).



    ------------------------------
    Vladimir Liberzon
    General Manager
    v.liberzon@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-23-2025 11:36 AM

    Completely in agreement that a project should use as many hierarchical organizing structures as it needs to communicate with stakeholders. But I think we should agree that only one of them is called the Work Breakdown Structure, and that it should be product oriented in order not to completely break from other widely used guidance like EIA-748, MIL-STD-881, ISO 21508, the PASEG, GAO guides, etc.



    ------------------------------
    Eric Christoph
    Partner
    Leesburg
    eric@transformativems.com
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-23-2025 12:12 PM

    All of them are work breakdown structures.

    One of them is called Main in Spider Project and unlike others this main WBS must contain all project activities.

    What if we will call Main selected delivery oriented WBS? 

    It is not natural to invent new names for other WBSs - all of them are work (activity) breakdown structures.

    There are many other structures like Resource Breakdown Structures, Risk Breakdown Structures, Cost Breakdown Structures, Material Breakdown Structures.

    Their names show what is grouped and structured.



    ------------------------------
    Vladimir Liberzon
    General Manager
    v.liberzon@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-23-2025 03:16 PM

    In the EIA-748 EVMS standard there is only one hierarchy designated as the Work Breakdown Structure. You can subdivide into the Program WBS and Contract WBS, but there is still only one structure that is the WBS. Pretty sure this is also true for ISO and every other project management standard I have looked at. The key characteristics are that it must be product oriented, must cover all of the work scope, and the charging levels must be able to be mapped to the cost system. I'm fine with suggesting that the structure of the WBS might be different, say ship building vs road construction, and that they don't all have to line up with the common elements in the MIL-STD if that's what you are getting at. Where I would have an issue would be in having two structures both called WBS on the same project.



    ------------------------------
    Eric Christoph
    Partner
    Leesburg
    eric@transformativems.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-23-2025 03:35 PM

    OK, you can use different names for other structures but they still are different structures of project works.

    And so people will discuss what WBS is the best instead of using all of them in parallel.

    Unfortunately many standards and RPs are based on the poor capabilities of the PM tools that are popular and widely used.

    I don't see other explanations.



    ------------------------------
    Vladimir Liberzon
    General Manager
    v.liberzon@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-24-2025 09:17 AM

    In 1998 I participated in the first meetings of PMI team that was created for development of PMI WBS Standard.

    This meeting was started with the discussion of the best approach to WBS development. I suggested to use multiple WBSs as we have already done for many years and explained corresponding advantages.

    My proposal that was considered as very interesting was rejected because PMI Standards must contain only those methods and tools that are used in most of the projects most of the times (in the USA). 

    This is the way most standards were created.



    ------------------------------
    Vladimir Liberzon
    General Manager
    v.liberzon@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-24-2025 12:29 PM

    It's true. I was on the PMI Practice Standard for EVM team and have contributed to the GAO Schedule Assessment Guide and MIL-STD-881, and agree that standards are influenced by the most commonly used approaches. That said, I've seen a lot of projects where people used the same word for different things, and it never made things better. It's even worse when you have to build a software system to implement the standard; computers need tightly defined structures to work well.



    ------------------------------
    Eric Christoph
    Partner
    Leesburg
    eric@transformativems.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-24-2025 09:44 AM

    I have never liked the term Work Breakdown Structures in the way AACE and many other organisations defines it, because it does not define the work. In reality it is a Deliverable Breakdown or as PRINCE2 calls it a Product Breakdown Structure and represent a hierarchical structure of the products that are being delivered and does not represent the type of "work" being completed or undertaken to create them.

    Thus, WBS infers to me that it is the type of work one is doing, for example it could be work such as design, procurement, fabrication, installation and commissioning. The APM standard from the UK advocates using a Product Breakdown Structure being a hierarchical structure identifying the deliverables to be produced and a Work Breakdown Structure used to identify the work being undertaken to produce the product or deliverable. This seems far more logical to me. Therefore intersection of the two structures, where work on a product was identified, could be used to create an initial list of activities for the development of the construction program.

    I also agree that there are many other structures needed in large project like Responsibility Breakdown Structure, Contract Breakdown Structure, System Break Down Structure, and some of the larger projects I was involved in we had up to 20 different coding structures in the construction program, P3 only allowed 20 so that was the limit! These code structures also included codes for elements like the location, elevation, level, season.

    The import thing is that your organisation needs to clearly define what their structure are so there is no confusion amongst the people working on the project.

    I think the term WBS is too well engrained in the construction industry for a change, but I always wanted to see it. 



    ------------------------------
    Paul Harris
    Retired
    Templestowe, Australia
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  • 11.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-24-2025 11:16 PM
      |   view attached

    Christian - Thanks for the opportunity and I am attaching my comments.



    ------------------------------
    Avi Sharma
    Director
    Delta Consulting Group, Inc.
    Englewood
    asharma@delta-cgi.com
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)



  • 12.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-30-2025 07:28 PM

    Hello Christian, 

    Please find comment log attached for peer review of QAR - SC Review Draft) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure. 

    Thanks,

    Khushboo Tibrewala



    ------------------------------
    Khushboo Tibrewala
    Program Manager
    Chicago
    k.tibrewala@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 03-30-2025 07:31 PM
      |   view attached

    Hello Christian, 

    Please find comment log attached for peer review of QAR - SC Review Draft) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure. 

    Thanks,

    Khushboo Tibrewala



    ------------------------------
    Khushboo Tibrewala
    Program Manager
    Chicago
    k.tibrewala@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)



  • 14.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 04-05-2025 08:20 AM

    Thank you, All,

    Here are my comments, thanks for your work. Also, for reference, I have attached one of my articles I cited among the comments.

    Amin

    ~~~~~~

    Amin S. Terouhid, Ph.D., P.E., PSP, DRMP

    PRINCIPAL CONSULTANT

    Adroit Consultants, LLC

    DIRECT:  201.366.3522 | FAX: 805.309.7534

    LinkedIn Twitter | AdroitProjectConsultants.com

    terouhid@AdroitProjectConsultants.com



    ------------------------------
    Amin Terouhid, Ph.D.
    Principal Consultant
    Upper Saddle River
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: (QAR – SC REVIEW DRAFT) 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure

    Posted 04-06-2025 12:21 AM
      |   view attached

    Hi Christian,

    Attached is my comment log for QAR 33R-15: Developing the Project Work Breakdown Structure.

    Thank you for the opportunity! 

    Rohit Shinde

    Project Controls Lead

    rohit.shinde9@gmail.com



    ------------------------------
    Rohit Shinde
    Project Controls Lead Analyst
    Black & Veatch
    Richmond
    rohit.shinde9@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)